The System

topic posted Sat, November 7, 2009 - 5:36 PM by 
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Aquarius, being the sign most closely related to revolution, I'm curious as to how you all feel about "The System". Good? Bad? Are you waiting for society as we know it to crumble? Are you actively contributing to it's demise? Are you working from "within" to change it? Are you happily a part of it? Have you dropped out of society altogether? Is it fine as is, does it need a major overhaul, just some tweaking, or does it need to be completely disassembled in order to start fresh?
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  • Re: The System

    Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:07 AM
    Last night I had a dream. The sky was crowded with UFO's floating slowly over the roof of my house and I was filled with joy as I watched them on the street. Because I *knew* in this dream that those UFO's were our brothers from space, co-operating with the esoteric white brotherhood who's protecting us from behind the scenes. Those brothers from space came to help us. They have techniques that are so much more evolved than ours. They know how to solve our huge problems with pollution.
    And then i woke up, feeling pissed off that it was just a dream...

    Oh, BTW, I'm not an aquarius but a taurus with uranus square my sun.
  • Re: The System

    Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:57 PM
    Hmm Exio, a politically charged question with a high potential for creating head butting..naughty naughty boy.

    haha, issues of the "system" are near and dear to my heart. This is a very complex question because the system is made up of so many interconnected components..the political, personal, and interpersonal. I dont believe that it is possible to create utopia, but I do believe that we can do better than our current establishment. I use to have radical, revolutionary political views, but now I dont necessarily think that revolution..is actually that revolutionary. Power structures are altered, but the underlying reason, purpose, and focus of power is still formulaic. Differences are still utilized as a devise tactic, and unity for the purpose of reform is only a temporary armistice. I think Audre Lorde described this problems most accurately when saying: "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." A new way of defining ourselves personally, and within society must be addressed simultaneously with issues of political structure because the system is a binding of all elements within society..the intersectionality of oppression makes this necessary.

    It is a very difficult task though, and a type of work that will not bare immediate fruit. I think systematic change is built up through time, with a change in society's philosophical foundations. The foundations of our current western ideas of society, our political structures, and even the way we define ourselves are based in the philosophies of the enlightenment (Descartes, Hobbes, Mills, Kant..etc.) The separation of mind/body. But interwoven into these philosophies are racist, misogynistic, and divisive ideology. There is obviously going to be problems when the foundational ideas that our society is built upon have these elements intrinsically integrated into them. I think new ways of envisioning the world, new philosophies will have to formulate to really overthrow the "system."

    But in the meantime, revolution can be attained in our interpersonal relationships, and our relationships with ourselves. Everything large starts from something small. My work usually centers on providing access and resources to underserved communities. If you cant meet basic needs, then forget about anything else. The creation of sustainable social change is maximized through the construction of networks that provide access to tools for self-determination, in my opinion. I could go on and on forever about this..but I'll stop. Hopefully my rambling made sense. = /
    • Re: The System

      Mon, November 9, 2009 - 7:14 PM
      Beautifully put. I especially love this:

      "The foundations of our current western ideas of society, our political structures, and even the way we define ourselves are based in the philosophies of the enlightenment (Descartes, Hobbes, Mills, Kant..etc.) The separation of mind/body. But interwoven into these philosophies are racist, misogynistic, and divisive ideology."

      The glorification of mind. Of course philosophers would glorify mind.

      And I agree with you so much... I feel this way... when we call something "The System", it separates it from us. We can feel no responsibility for how it operates. Were we to replace that terminology with something like "The Global Community", we might be more able to see it for what it is... something that we are a part of. Not a bad thing in itself.


      "Hmm Exio, a politically charged question with a high potential for creating head butting..naughty naughty boy."

      LOL! My intentions weren't completely evil (only partially). I actually am curious about how Aquarians see this. I'm Aquarius rising with Uranus conjunct sun... so it's hard for me to isolate my Aquarian side from all my Libra, Scorpio, and Leo. And I find myself very much disagreeing with what alot of people think that Aquarius is about. They automatically say, "freedom" and apply these extremely individualistic associations... but I don't think "freedom" is that simple or individualistic in the Aquarian view. So you've become my test group.
      • Re: The System

        Mon, November 9, 2009 - 8:45 PM
        "I feel this way... when we call something "The System", it separates it from us. We can feel no responsibility for how it operates."

        I completely agree. The power of language, and semantics is amazing. Sometimes people think its nit picky to argue about the language/diction that are chosen and used to define us...but it is so important because it is the building block for the relationship that we will construct with it..because of linguistic relativity. The "system" is so insidious in that way, that it has crafted our terminologies to suit and perpetuate its needs. It is so crucial for us to define ourselves, instead of being defined.

        "Were we to replace that terminology with something like "The Global Community", we might be more able to see it for what it is... something that we are a part of. Not a bad thing in itself."

        "The Global Community," I like that. Being able to see things for what they are, how subversive Exio. You'll have the McCarthyists after you in no time.

        "And I find myself very much disagreeing with what alot of people think that Aquarius is about. They automatically say, "freedom" and apply these extremely individualistic associations... but I don't think "freedom" is that simple or individualistic in the Aquarian view. So you've become my test group.

        Yea, I've been getting the impression that most people think we're cold, aloof (Im so sick of that word), ideologists. I can understand why they automatically think of freedom, as in the self..the individuals freedom. Its usually how freedom is defined in our society, in the tradition of laissez-faire, liberalist ideology. Its a freedom that is not embodied with society, but apart from. I'm not sure how other Aquarians feel about this. I have an Aquarius sun, in addition to 4 planets in Libra..so diplomacy, social equality/justice is very prominent in my little head. Also my Scorpio rising, and extremely Plutonian nature makes me want to prob deeper into subjects. For a Scorpio you come off very Aquarian to me. If you didnt have your chart posted, and we were just chatting, you would have totally fooled me!
        • Re: The System

          Fri, November 13, 2009 - 9:15 AM
          "You'll have the McCarthyists after you in no time."

          Oh yes... community... sounds like Communism! Equality... a communist word.


          "Its a freedom that is not embodied with society, but apart from."

          Hmmm. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. Care to elaborate?

          I, personally, feel that it does have quite a bit to do with society. Aquarius follows Capricorn (social order), so it's basis is in that. Opposite Leo... the sign of the individual... but now in the "global/universal" quadrant. So, from my perspective, Aquarius seeks to mesh the individual with society. Revolutions occur when enough individuals feel that their social structure is not supportive of them... an attempt to create a structure which is supportive of the individual. This can definitely lead to Libertarian views... I definitely hold a lot of Libertarian values. But I also believe in balance.

          And, no, I don't believe that "the invisible hand" will automatically create this balance. That, to me, is assuming that one of our creations (the market) is somehow going to make things right... the Tower of Babel.
          • Re: The System

            Fri, November 13, 2009 - 12:03 PM
            LOL, I think we had an internet miscommunication moment. The not embodied freedom statement was in response to your statement:

            "And I find myself very much disagreeing with what alot of people think that Aquarius is about. They automatically say, "freedom" and apply these extremely individualistic associations... but I don't think "freedom" is that simple or individualistic in the Aquarian view. So you've become my test group.

            (My response) "Yea, I've been getting the impression that most people think we're cold, aloof (Im so sick of that word), ideologists. I can understand why they automatically think of freedom, as in the self..the individuals freedom. Its usually how freedom is defined in our society, in the tradition of laissez-faire, liberalist ideology. Its a freedom that is not embodied with society, but apart from."

            I agree with you, I dont believe freedom is only exclusive to the self. But I think many people automatically think of freedom on individualistic terms because that is the dominant definition in our society, due to our philosophical traditions. The "I" is not inclusive of the body, the senses, the community. The "I" is our reason, intellect..the mind. If we were to look closely at these idea, yes, they are Descartian, but much of our current societal notions are a derivative.
            I think thats why most people automatically assume Aquarians are about self freedom, because usually when people think freedom...it is in that format. LOL, let me know if that made sense.
            For me, Liberatarian values sound great on paper..but not so great in action. But its like that with most political ideologies, take Socialism, sounds great on paper as well, but not so great in practice.

            "And, no, I don't believe that "the invisible hand" will automatically create this balance."

            You just shattered my dreams, the invisible hand is suppose to fix everything in my life...
            • Re: The System

              Sat, November 14, 2009 - 11:32 AM
              There is freedom of action and freedom of thoughts. Crabs with watercup risings believe when talking about aquarius freedom, much should be applied to the freedom of thoughts because aquarius are suspicious of drifting state of mind that drifts from period to period, from place to place, culture to culture, thus much freedom is needed. When talking about freedom of action, we might need to bridge the gap between our inner ideals and constraints of external reality to achieve it. Perhaps external reality has no room for improvement if we keep restraining inner thought because we constantly have to make our thought meet the external constraint like making horse chase after the carriage. Crabs with watercup risings like to keep a healthy gap between our inner ideal and outer reality while keeping the thoughts open and free.
              Perhaps it is dangerous to let our natural instinct run wild like snakes and foxes, but self enlightening might come through absolute freedom in thoughts without moral constraint, which has come mostly from ethics and religious preach and is often applied in the wrong places. Too much “moral protection” on our inner feeling hampers ability to become aware of our shadows…

              Crabs recognize people act on two compulsions, moral and animal compulsions. Other people’s rights are afflicted when too much moral compulsions are applied on thoughts, or when too much animal compulsions run wild on action.
              Crabs with watercup rising might not be very fond of systems that train our thoughts to think in certain ways, to believe what is right or wrong, but they like systems that give equality to mankind. But equality isn’t so simple as dog biscuits. Rule based fairness invites dispute over how impartial the rules really are.....
            • Re: The System

              Sat, November 14, 2009 - 4:16 PM
              "LOL, I think we had an internet miscommunication moment."

              Yeah... I assumed so. But I somehow applied the "Its a freedom that is not embodied with society, but apart from" as referencing your personal view of freedom... and reading back, I'm not sure how I twisted that one. I assumed that it was just semantics, but it was actually me fucking up in my reading.
              • Re: The System

                Wed, November 18, 2009 - 11:05 PM
                From barbarianism to decadence, systems keep revising themselves, which we call civilization.

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